Posted by chicagomedia.org on January 13, 2009 at 20:47:52:
Andre Traversa is a former Chicago radio person who is now a Life Coach. On his website promoting his new career, he has an interview page. There, he interviews former Chicago radio great, Sky Daniels. It's a long interview, but for fans of classic Chicago rock radio, it is a great read.
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Sky Daniels Interview
Our guest is radio industry veteran Sky Daniels.
I first heard of Sky while listening to
Steve Dahl and Garry Meier, two very well-known Chicago radio personalities, who were doing afternoon drive on WLUP, AM 1000, a.k.a. Chicago's Loop. But the Loop was primarily known for its FM side, a hard-rocking album-rock, or AOR format. I don't recall why Sky's name was mentioned on the air, but he served as program director during the Loop's heyday in the late '70's and early '80's. At the time, Steve Dahl pulled a huge stunt called the Disco Demolition, where he got fans to bring disco records to a baseball game at Comiskey Park, so he could blow them up. I was only 9 years old at the time, and I wasn't listening to the Loop; in fact, I was a diehard disco fan, but I heard about the event after it happened, and apparently it escalated out of control, and some people were injured, but I'm sure Sky can tell us more about that.
I first became truly acquainted with Sky about four years ago, when he launched a fantastic eclectic radio station in Chicago called 9 FM, which broadcast on three suburban frequencies. Their motto was WE PLAY ANYTHING, and while Sky was there, that was essentially accurate.
They played everything from Dan Fogelberg to the Sex Pistols. New and old, they played it all. Unfortunately, Sky wasn't able to program the station for its entire duration, and the format tightened up considerably after he left.
Over the years, Sky's career moves have been extremely diverse. He has programmed radio stations from Chicago to California, has served as editor of Radio and Records Magazine, and even did a stint at Best Buy. Sky Daniels currently serves as VP/Promotion, Fontana/Universal Music Group in Universal City, CA, a consortium of 110 independent labels under one umbrella. It's both an honor and a privilege to have Sky with us.
Coach Andre: Sky, welcome to controversialcoach.com. As a life-coach, I do everything I can to encourage my clients to identify their passions and pursue them professionally. I know it sounds terribly idealistic, but I define success as doing something for money that you would do for free; so getting paid becomes the icing on the cake. I know we all have to make a living, but it's great if we can make a living doing something we truly love and enjoy. I know you've done more than just radio, but would you consider radio your first love? I know that's how you started your career. Did you grow up really enjoying radio, and wanting to pursue it as a career?
Sky: I, in fact, did grow up wanting to be on the radio. My cousin worked at WAKR--the same station where the legendary Alan Freed worked. At a tender age, I was being given a personal introduction--at 4 years of age--to what life as a DJ might be. My cousin drove a blue Thunderbird convertible, gave me stacks of 45 records, and brought me to the radio station. Back then, girls would hang out in the parking lot waiting to 'meet the DJ". I was hooked.
I spent my entire youth obsessed with rock n' roll. It became much more than a pastime--it was my salvation. I listened with the fervent desire of a true believer. My friends and I shared music, gathering in basements nightly to discuss the power of the new Led Zeppelin, the daring of the latest Jimi Hendrix, the message of the latest Who record.
As a kid, I would listen to the radio and pretend I was the DJ. I would verbalize my own intros to songs, trying to match the drama of the great boss jocks--in my case, it was Boots Bell at WHOT/Youngstown —my hometown, and the great Midwest jocks, Lee "Baby" Sims, Porky Chedwick, Larry Lujack, etc.
While in high school, I managed to intern at a Youngstown station— Y103. I later went to Ohio University, which has a fantastic Communications School. My first week on campus, there was a meeting for those interested in joining the campus radio station, ACRN. I arrived at the auditorium for the meeting a minute or so late--and it was PACKED with 800 kids. I had to take the seat in the very first row, right in front of the podium. Before the meeting began, the Assistant Program Director (APD) of the station pulled the Program Director (PD) aside and whispered "our overnight jock just let me know he is dropping out of school. We need someone with commercial experience to jump in tonight". Before the PD could address the throng, I said to the PD, "I have commercial experience" Which wasn't true--I had never been on-air, I just had been a board op. The PD said, "OK, meet us at the studio tonight at midnight, we'll let you audition."
That night, the PD and APD both stood behind me as I introduced my first song, on air, I summoned my courage, opened the mike, weaved a story--and nailed the post! The PD said, “boy, that was great! You've got the gig." They both left! I panicked--I didn't really know what to do--but, luckily, there was a newsman working late and he walked me through the systems. I never looked back.
Coach Andre: Wow, what a great story; you were certainly blessed to be at the right place at the right time. I know that you worked at a couple of stations in Detroit and Pittsburgh before your glory days at the Loop. Tell us about those stations, what were the formats? Were you a program director or just a jock?
Sky: I got my first commercial break in Akron, Ohio at WKDD. I was known as "The Prince of Punk"--I played a ton of punk and glam rock. The guys in Devo, Rocket From The Crypt, etc all hung out at the station. I have the proud distinction of being the first person to play Devo on the radio!
From there I went to WYDD, a free-form station in Pittsburgh. Again, I championed artists like the Talking Heads, Ramones, Television, etc. Which--for a Steel town like Pittsburgh, made me a bit of an iconoclast. That job led me to catch the eye of Lee Abrams, who brought me to Detroit to work at WWWW (W4). Steve Dahl was the morning man, and I was the Afternoon Drive jock. We took W4 to #1 in Detroit. Lee had a dream of building what he called "the New York Yankees of radio" at a station in Chicago-- WLUP. Lee grew up in Chicago, and by this time was consulting 75 stations nationally--so this was of monumental importance to him. He hand-picked the talent. I told him I would come--but I had to program the music. He deferred. And off to the Loop I went. In the beginning, the Loop was really adventurous--we played Lene Lovich, Psychedelic Furs, Ian Dury, etc We would later evolve to more of a hard-rock station (which was accelerated by Disco Demolition).
The Loop is probably the last monumental radio station, with, perhaps, the exception of KROQ/LA. It was a perfect storm that has not really been replicated since. We would draw 50,000 people to station events. It was hysteria. We sold over 2 million Loop shirts in 1 year! Eventually, management changed, and the new management focused on taking the station to an older, more mainstream demo. They basically killed its soul.
Coach Andre: Wasn't WXRT playing a lot of that new wave music you were playing on the Loop? I had heard that even though you were playing hard rock later on, you still mixed it up with Elvis Costello and other artists. What did WMET sound like back then? When the new management came in, did they try to micromanage your programming style?
Sky: Norm Winer said when he arrived at WXRT from KSAN/SF that The Loop was more progressive than WXRT. He brought the modern sensibility to WXRT. WMET was very mainstream. They basically were 'meat-and-potatoes'. They didn't ever lead--although Trip Reeb (former GM of KROQ and now GM of 91X in San Diego) was PD for a while and tried to hire me and invigorate the station.
There was a brief period when WXRT and The Loop made Chicago the most active music market in America. A LOT of new music broke out of Chicago for a few years. You have to remember, just prior to that period, WLS-AM was STILL the top music station in Chicago--and they were the tightest Top 40 in America. We blew the doors open (and blew away the notion that the Midwest didn't break new music.)
I based my programming philosophy on WMMS/Cleveland--possibly the greatest rock station of all time in the 70s. John Gorman and Kid Leo were brilliant. Leo once made the infamous comment "It is not our job to break new music... it is our pleasure!" I shared that philosophy throughout my radio career. Everywhere I worked in the Rust Belt, I always heard “the heartland doesn’t want new music”. Everywhere I went we destroyed that myth.
Coach Andre: Okay, since I'm a sucker for detail, and since I'm a radio junkie, I'd like to backtrack slightly. What was the format like at the Detroit station before your tenure at the Loop? Was that also a new-music-intensive format?
Sky: WWWW (W4) was a Lee Abrams AOR station. He did allow me to infuse it with more new music, and also let me host a popular punk rock show--Overseas Operator. W4 had Steve Dahl in the mornings, myself, and Mark McEwen--who later went on to be the CBS Morning Show weatherman for years. We went to #1 12 plus in Detroit from dead last. That inspired Lee to grab Dahl and I for Chicago.
Lee gets a bad rap for homogenizing rock radio. Nothing could be further from the truth. Lee, himself, is a risk-taker. He believes in developing new artists and inspiring audiences. He developed Z-Rock and XM as further evidence. At the time, he tried to put some structure to what was a 'free-form' environment. The problem with a lot of the free-form stations was self-indulgent programmers or jocks. They thought the audience hung on every word and song. Most don't. You have to attain a sophisticated balance of familiar and fresh. It is an alchemy that relies on social observation and listening to your P1 listeners.
Coach Andre: I was asking if you were at the Loop when the new management came in. Did they try to limit what you could do as a program director?
Sky: Yes. There were management changes during my tenure. The original GM, Les Elias, was replaced and there was a strong cultural shift internally. Basically, we had, like many iconic stations, beco me a sensation by 'breaking the rules' and developing an outlaw image. Once we became the #1 station in Chicago--that outlook was challenged. We needed to preserve and broaden our success--massify it, if you will.
This led to several programming philosophy shifts. One was a "Less Talk, More rock" approach. Insipid, considering you had jocks that were heralded as best-in-class. Secondly, Steve and Gary were fired--which really cast the ship asunder. Third, there was a belief that we needed to become an upper-demo station, when we had built our brand on 18-34 acceptance.
It was during the latter, that I was deemed too aligned with the "low-end, black tee-shirt" Loop. Ironic, considering I had opposed taking the hard rock only stance and was more modern in my personal philosophies. Even more ironic considering that I would leave The Loop to go to San Francisco to help launch KFOG--one of the leading Adult Alternative stations in America.
Coach Andre: You are so right about blending familiar with unfamiliar music on the air. That's what made your programming style so effective at 9 Fm, which we'll discuss later. A couple of more questions about the Loop. After the new management insisted on the hard-rock-only format, were you still able to blend in some of the new and alternative music along with the traditional AOR stuff? I remember speaking with Scott Dirks, who worked with you at the Loop, and he said you incorporated some of the newer music that was out then, like Elvis Costello, the Boomtown Rats, etc, along with the hard-rock. Is that what you tried to do?
Sky: I started to get stripped of my power. They brought in different consultants and fired Lee. The Loop died when Steve and Gary, and then Lee, were let go. It was a slow, painful death. I've seen it a lot of times. Pressure is on to fold to lower-common denominator programming philosophies. Radio is haunted by Arbitron. Archaic methodology that never represents high-common denominator targeting. Compare radio to TV. TV has cable--especially channels like HBO, FX, Showtime that have been HERALDED for creating original, smart series. Mad Men on AMC gets low ratings--but TV (and the press) herald its quality. Bestow Emmys on it, and advertisers ignore ratings and seek the sophisticated viewer. Radio does not have that 'double standard". You either get ratings or you don't. This caused a continual devolving standard for radio. Which resulted in New Media, satellite, etc., gaining a foothold for the more adventurous consumer. At least radio, with its back against the wall, is beginning to respond--albeit slowly...
Coach Andre: Okay, before we move on to other subjects, I want to come to closure on your days at the Loop. What was it like to work with Steve and Gary? What really happened at Disco Demolition? Did you attend the event?
Sky: Steve convinced me to leave Detroit and come to Chicago. We had just gone to #1 in Detroit--and I wasn't sure I wanted to leave. Steve was emphatic--"he said, 'are you nuts? This is the big time!". I watched Steve bond with Gary--who was the original overnight jock--their rapport grew through the 'crosstalk' they had as Gary signed off and Steve signed on. It was magic.
The Disco Demolition thing was the brain child of Dave Logan, our promotions director. It started in small bars out in East Chicago, etc. We did two, and both were INSANE. The Fire Marshalls closed both down. We knew we needed a bigger room. Dave had been working with Bill Veeck on doing a promotion for the White Sox. At the time, the Sox barely drew 3000 fans to their games. Dave took a flyer and said, "what if we do a promotion where fans bring a disco record and get in for 98 cents?" Veeck said "if it will draw 5000 people, I'm in". As the weeks led up to the event, the phone reaction started to get intense. EVEtheWatcherNE was calling about Disco Demolition. I remember being in a marketing meeting and saying to the staff, "this feels like it is gonna be a lot bigger than 5000 people." I was on the air when the event took place. I watched on TV as the exit ramps to Comiskey Park were closed by State Troopers, thousands of kids were climbing the water pipes to get into what was a sold-out park. When the actual explosion took place, all hell broke loose. Steve and Gary, along with Lorelei, our "Loop Girl" had to be raced into an underground tunnel to escape the throngs. Jimmy Piersal was the Sox color man, he was skewering Steve on-air--'this is a disgrace to baseball'--because the second game was forfeited. A mob of 30 guys broke into the Hancock and were beating on the studio doors with bats--a real lynch mob. The cops had to tear gas them out of the building.
The Loop did a lot of massive events. We started playing a number of local bands-- Off Broadway, Tantrum, The Hounds, The Boyzz, Kind, etc. I had an idea to do a local rock show. But, this would not just be some bar show--we were going to book the top local acts, heavily promote it, and hold it at the Amphitheater--which held 19,000 people-for TWO nights! I remember pitching the idea to Ken Adamany (manager of Cheap Trick and Off Broadway) at an Off Broadway club show. I was with John Sykes, the local Epic rep (who later went on to become President of VH1). When I left the room after giving Ken my grand scheme, he turned to John and said "this guy is losing it. He thinks he can book bar bands at that size hall?" The "Support Your Local Rock" show drew 56,000 people over a two day period. As I went out to introduce Off Broadway, I turned to Ken (a friend, by the way) and said, "do you still think I'm losing it?"
Coach Andre: Wow, you certainly are a marketing genius. After you left the Loop, I remember catching the station one night and they were trying to compete with WXRT; playing a wide selection of music. they hired Bobby Skafish, and I think the program director was a guy named Rick Balis. I thought they sounded pretty good. But I guess this change in direction only lasted a few months. Were you aware of this little experiment?
Sky: Greg Solk was first, then Rick Balis. Greg brought in Bobby, hoping to, ironically, better compete with WXRT (which was our original position). They ultimately realized that the station had become synonymous with hard rock. So they reverted back to a Classic (hard) Rock position. One of the prevailing truths about stations is you only get one chance to define your image. Once you try to 'alter' it, invariably it fails.
Usually, you have to change call letters and blow up the format. In this case, the call letters were iconic--so they realized they had brand awareness they needed to preserve. Meanwhile, (more irony), I went to help build KFOG in San Francisco with Lee Abrams and Dave Logan. Which remains to this day a Triple A stalwart.
Coach Andre: Okay, I'm glad you brought up KFOG. What made you leave the Loop and what attracted you to KFOG? Also, tell our readers what AAA stands for. It's a rather unique format; and I think our readers would be interested in knowing more about it.
Sky: To be honest, my rock n' roll persona had taken me off the rails—drugs, alcohol. The Loop management had enough when the DEA came to arrest me while I was on the air.
When you are 24, from a poor Steel town like Youngstown , Ohio--and you become one of America's biggest players in music, a lot can go wrong. Too much money, celebrity, and, of course, the persona that was "Skyboy". I went nuts in Chicago. I can sum that up with this anecdote.
When the Rolling Stones played Chicago in 1980, I spent two and a half days hanging with Keith and Ronnie. Come the third day, Keith says to me, "it's been fun, mate, but we gotta get some rest before the gig..." I walked out of the Whitehall Hotel and thought, 'Keith Richards wanted to crash before I did'. That is NOT good living. Lee Abrams and Dave Logan brought me to KFOG to build yet another iconic station. I wasn't sober (yet), but would be soon. KFOG was magical. It was intelligent, sophisticated, and there was tremendous talent there. We were housed in a little studio in the clock tower of Ghirardelli Square. The air studio window looked out on Alcatraz Island and the Golden Gate Bridge. Everything about it was the anti-thesis of what the Loop had become. Ownership was very trusting--we were owned by Susquehanna, and the principals, Larry Grogan and Dave Kennedy, truly believed in the vision of the station. They were patient and supportive. It would take three years, but KFOG would become one of the top-billing radio stations in America--all the while being smart and adventurous. I am honored to have been there.
Coach Andre: I'm glad to hear of your sobriety; that's very inspiring. You have spoken a lot about the Adult Album Alternative Format, also known as AAA. Tell our readers a little about this format; flesh it out a bit; many people may not be familiar with it. What is the vision and defining purpose of AAA? What does it sound like?
Sky: Triple A is also known as Adult Album Alternative Radio. WXRT in Chicago is one of the leading examples of this format, as is KFOG/SF and KBCO/Denver. This is a format that is eclectic, and favors melodic rock and singer-songwriters primarily. Artists like Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Counting Crows, Ray LaMontagne, etc represent the 'new' artists Triple A supports. They also have Gold libraries that can either lean singer-songwriter, a la Jackson Browne, Dire Straits, Van Morrison, etc or lean post-modern--such as R.E.M., U2, Beck, etc. Triple A has seen significant growth in the last year. Both New York and Los Angeles have had stations adopt the format. This is interesting because those two markets have been resistant to adopting "risky" formats because of the cost of owning and operating in those markets. Both Emmis and Bonneville, in effect, took $200 million dollar "gambles" by switching to the format. Once you establish the format, however, it reaches intelligent, high-income devotees.
Coach Andre: Okay, thanks for the clarification. After KFOG, you did a stint at the now-defunct KMET in L.A. What was that like?
Sky: To be honest, dreadful. I knew two weeks into coming there I had made a mistake leaving KFOG. By the time I joined KMET, it had lost its purpose. KMET had been a legendary rock station, but, like many of its era, it had lost its original vitality. The station went through 4 or 5 programming regimes. Every few ratings periods, it would have a new identity--a lot of "AOR legacy" stations went through this. Most of them, if they survived, went Classic Rock. Two weeks into going there, I remember standing on the roof of the building, which looked out at the Hollywood sign. I thought to myself, here I am, a kid from Youngstown, Ohio--'I'm working in LOS ANGELES radio--and I hate it!" I don't want to sound disrespectful, but to this day I still wonder how the management of that station kept their jobs in a market like that.
I was fortunate, KFOG was willing to take me back after a year at KMET.
Coach Andre: Didn't you also take a gig at a station in Seattle in the late '80's? Tell us about that experience.
Sky: Yes, I went to Seattle to KISW in 1988. When I got there, I was told "Seattle is not a new music town". Same refrain that I got about Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago, etc. I was fortunate that I hired two music people from the newly defunct "New Rock" station (As Alternative was called in the early days)- KJET. Mike Jones and Damon Stewart knew the Seattle new music scene, and took me to see the 'hot' local bands-- Mudhoney, Soundgarden, Screaming Trees, Nirvana, etc. My reaction was "THESE are the cutting-edge bands? They sound like Zeppelin!" We started to incorporate these acts into our playlist.
We took a lot of flak from both the old school and the new school. This had happened to me many times. I come to a market, begin playing cutting-edge rock on a previously 'mainstream' station--and even the new music fans were angry. They felt that we were 'violating' the sanctity of their bands by attaching them to the mainstream. I got stabbed by an angry fan at a Psychedelic Furs show at Metro in Chicago, beat up often in Detroit at punk hangouts, and, in Seattle, we booked Jane's Addiction's first show outside Los Angeles as a station event. We got pelted on stage, beaten in the halls. Let me tell you, being an evangelist comes with a price. A year later, Time Magazine proclaimed Seattle the "New Music Capitol of America" and KISW was #1 in the ratings... KISW is still doing well. Dave Richards, who programmed the (short-lived) Blaze in Chicago, has resurrected the ratings for them.
The primary competition was (the now defunct) KXRX, as well as Classic Rocker KZOK. An interesting side-note: KXRX was managed by the former GM of KISW, who, prior to my arrival, took 28 out of 32 full-time employees from KISW to his new station, including the dominant Morning Show in the market. It made it particularly satisfying then, to totally rebuild KISW and become the #1 rated station overall in the market a year later...
Coach Andre: You have had a very diverse career over the years. You haven't spent all your time directly in radio. For six years, you served as editor of Radio and Records Magazine, and you even took a position with Best Buy for a while. Was this a deliberate move on your part? Was radio just getting too homogenized for you? What made you take a hiatus from radio?
Sky: My original hiatus from radio was when I went into the record business. I joined EPIC Records in 1989. Then went to become SR VP at the PolyGram Label Group (where I handled acts such as U2, Cranberries, Melissa Etheridge, etc). My profile as someone who broke a lot of new music in radio made me an attractive candidate to the label side. They offered me a LOT of money. It also immersed me deeper into artist development, giving me broader perspective on how our business works (or doesn't).
I spent 7 years on the label side before I joined R&R, becoming their General Manager. Radio & Records was the most-read publication by radio, but they had lost their position of influence with the label side, largely due to the emergence of the BDS Monitoring system for airplay, which Billboard owned. I had to bring a balance to R&R's core strategy, broadening it to provide empathy for artist development while retaining its impeccable credibility. We couldn't be a hype source--we were the trusted source of broadcasting.
I helped build the adoption of Mediabase as a successful competitor to BDS in airplay monitoring, restored R&R's credibility with labels, and also built the first digital distribution system for music (used by 3800 radio stations) in 1998.
Building the digital distribution system at that very early stage required a lot of prescience and fortitude. The music business was totally against digital delivery at this point--as Napster had created a fear of it being a 'black hole'. I had to create the architecture, secure the digital rights (at ZERO COST to R&R) to all of domestic music in America, build strategic partnerships with Mediabase, Selector, Audible Magic, and others. This remains my greatest achievement. It truly was YEARS ahead of the digital curve.
Ironically, my owner at R&R thought it was a folly. It cost me my job. I can honestly say that this system would have generated potentially hundreds of millions of dollars--it presaged any of the major platforms that came to market-- iTunes, Rhapsody, etc. It also would have incorporated the power of RADIO advocacy--which, to this day, has not been fully tapped. But it did prepare me for my next position as VP/Entertainment for Best Buy. I learned a lot working at Best Buy on consumer marketing, new technologies, and the retail side of our business. I worked for a wonderful man, Gary Arnold. Gary has true passion for music, and helped position Best Buy as the leading retailer of music in America. Gary was taken to task for lowering the price point of developing artists to as low as $6.99 for a CD. But he did so with literally reams of research from music consumers (hundreds of thousands of them).
Working at Best Buy gave me what I felt was the 'final piece' in gaining broad perspective of how music impacts the audience. I had done radio, the label side, New Media, and, now, entertainment retail and marketing. But I still had a hankering for radio...
Coach Andre: Well, I for one, am still glad you had a hankering for radio. You sound great on the air, as well as being a programming genius. Let's jump forward to 2004. That summer, you launched a cutting-edge, innovative radio station in the Chicago area called 9 Fm. I remember listening to it; it was incredible; and it was through 9 that I originally became aware of your gifts and talents. The station's motto was WE PLAY ANYTHING; and that about sums it up. You played everything from Joni Mitchell and Dan Fogelberg to the Sex Pistols. And you forced the other Chicago stations to sound better. For about six months, Chicago radio was a joy to listen to. At 9, you went beyond even the eclectic AAA format. While it was still a formatted radio station, it was almost like free-form radio for the 21st century. What was your vision for 9 Fm? What were you trying to achieve there?
Sky: I appreciate your kind words. Your enthusiasm speaks to what we found as we launched NINE FM--that there was a large number of people, disenfranchised from radio, that sought a station that was broad and eclectic--but not stentorian or self-indulgent. NINE FM, while very broad--from a genre and era standpoint, still played songs familiar to the various genres. They were 'hits'--but were inclusive from many formats. NINE FM did something different than JACK-FM. Unlike Jack, which was intentionally "random", NINE took seemingly disparate artists (on paper) from different genres and created 'sets' of music that worked. We still utilized the time-honored art of the 'segue'. I have thousands of emails from people that FREAKED when they would hear a Kanye West song go into a funky Jeff Beck track and have a seamless transition. NINE was critically acclaimed-- Billboard named it the Station of 2005, the local papers were extremely strong in their praise. NINE's problem was two-fold--it spent the better part of a year only utilizing its Kankakee signal--which barely reached the southern suburbs of Chicago; and we did a 'soft launch' of the station--meaning we didn't market until 9 months into the station being on-air. I viewed a topographical map of where NINE's signal reached, and where 85% of Arbitron diaries fell--we didn't reach that area. So that made it impossible for us to get ratings--which is the end-all and be-all of radio. Early on, I had one of the PDs of a major station in Chicago tell me "the station is remarkable in its creativity, but in Chicago's metro it is all static. You are doomed." I know its subjective, but a LOT of creative radio programmers have reached out to let me know how much they loved NINE and were inspired by it. Very gratifying.
Coach Andre: As I listened to 9 Fm, it actually got better and better as time went on. Towards the end, you were even playing a lot of obscure songs that weren't even hits. It started sounding like a truly good progressive rock station. You were even playing Graham Parker tunes. I really liked the way you blended the old and the new. I know you're a new music guy, which is great. I am somewhere in the middle between you and Chicago radio oldies guru Bob Stroud. I definitely follow new music, and like a lot of it. But I'm still a classic rock guy, especially deep tracks that don't get a lot of airplay. Here's my concern. In the future, as Boomers eventually die off, do you think the old stuff will die with them? Or do you see young 20-somethings adopting this music and claiming it as their own? Also, it seems shortsighted to me that so many stations want to go after only a younger demo. I was surprised when WJMK in Chicago flipped their oldies format for Jack Fm, especially when the oldies station was full of classic Chicago on-air personalities. Automated radio is bad enough, but in a market like Chicago, it seems especially stupid. Anyway, it seems shortsighted to me to go after only a younger demo, when Boomers are the ones with the money to buy products and services; so it would make sense for advertisers to target them. What do you think will happen to the music of the 60's, 70's, and 80's? Do you think it will remain alive and well; or will it be relegated to NPR?
Sky: The digital movement is providing fans that have an appetite for 'vertical demand' i.e. deeper tracks, to relive, or discover, those tracks. Internet radio, streaming outlets, peer-to-peer sites all provide incredible reach. The key point is, 'what stimulates choice?' Most people still need a trusted 'governor' to distill the enormous amount of music readily available to them. I've seen significant studies that reveal, in 2008, that broadcast RADIO still creates 65% of the demand for new music. So it is by far, still the vehicle that informs most consumers. We are seeing that social networks, MySpace, Facebook, YouTube, generate a huge amount of reach. Also, as it relates to younger people absorbing the great classics, games like Rock Band and Guitar Hero are really influencing young audiences to discover the all-time greats. I went to the Hollywood debut party of "Rock Band 2". It was incredible watching a dozen stages/kiosks populated by 12-24 year olds that scrolled past the NEW titles and went right to the warhorses. As for older fans, in reality, they are super-served rather well by Triple A stations like WXRT, KFOG, etc. The LABEL industry made more of an overt choice to regenerate to lower-demos. I think that they are now seeing the power of the "baby boomer" by how strong the concert market is for the veteran acts. I know we are focused on finding ways to reach that generation, because they are COMMITTED to music as an important lifestyle choice.
Coach Andre: Okay, before we close, I'd like to talk with you a bit about the future of radio. I was born in 1970, so my formative years embraced the late '70's and included the '80's. For me, those were the golden days of radio. I sort of gave up on radio in the 90's, which for me, was the worst decade. Unlike you, I never got into the Seattle grunge sound. But more to the point, radio just got more and more homogenized; and frankly, boring. Except for the advent of talk-radio, there really wasn't much to listen to on the dial. The standard reason I hear from other radio nerds and insiders for this downward slide is deregulation. They claim that companies being allowed to own too many stations in a market limits consumer choice and contributes to the standardization of programming. Clear Channel is usually considered the primary culprit. Being a crazy right-wing nut case, I tend to be in favor of essentially unregulated markets. But in my mind there seems to be another factor that is often overlooked. Companies like Bonneville and Emmis tend to take more risks with their playlists because their stock isn't publicly traded on the open market. So they're not as accountable to stockholders for short-term profits. What's your take on this? What do you think is the primary cause of the lowest-common-denominator approach of so much radio content?
Sky: You have identified one cause of radio's factors in limiting risk in their playlists: publicly traded companies. Once any media becomes publicly traded, it becomes a commodity. Shareholders have little personal involvement in the product, they just expect bigger quarterly returns. This tends to be problematic in media--there are so few reliable predictors that any given content, be it music, film, or writing, will 'succeed' in the marketplace. That volatility causes companies to 'limit their risk'--i.e. make sure their playlists appeal to the broadest possible audience. The biggest factor, without question, is the monopoly that Arbitron has on the consciousness of the business--not just agencies and clients, but the operators as well. Every radio station is measured singularly by ratings. No other factor has ANY bearing whatsoever. In both TV and film, there has been context applied that allows for commitment to creativity. Cable TV isn't expected to draw as many viewers as broadcast, so FX and HBO are hailed for their creative risks--and buyers support that higher psychographic audience. Same in film, small 'art-house' films gain respect (and an audience) by winning critical acclaim and awards. In radio, it is Arbitron ratings. Period. Even PDs evaluate stations by ratings alone. The methodology is random, and to this point, tends to eliminate higher-common-denominator targeting--because most intelligent, successful business people won't take part in any phone survey. The 'Do-Not-Call' registry is enormous. Plus, in their screening Arbitron eliminates anyone who does not have a registered landline in their name. College students, cell-phone only users, all are exempt from Arbitron surveys. Plus, until PPM rolls out, who has time to fill out a diary? How archaic is a daily written log? With the increased development of external factors: Internet radio, interactive Wi-Fi mediums, etc; I think you'll see radio continue to realize it may have dumb-downed its content too much. HD Radio was supposed to provide broadcast radio's answer to the depth and variety issue, but the industry has bungled the ball there. Radio still CAN invoke passion, I've seen it many times in my career. So I know the audience exists to support 'smarter' radio. Radio isn't desperate enough yet to commit to programming to a smaller, yet discerning audience. It will be... Soon.
Coach Andre: Okay, I think you've just begun to answer my next, and final question, but I'd like you to elaborate. Are you cautiously optimistic about the future of radio? Will competition from satellite and Internet radio force companies to provide more consumer choice on the airwaves? Please give us some examples of radio stations that our readers can check out that provide interesting, cutting-edge music programming.
Sky: I am optimistic about radio. Trust me, it is not based on a naive affinity for the medium, either. Terrestrial radio has been bombarded by competition—satellite radio, online radio, streaming sources. Steve Jobs intentionally built IPods without radios to undermine the medium. Radio itself, driven by the archaic measurement and reach of Arbitron, devolved into a lowest-common denominator medium. Yet, in recent significant research studies, it has RECLAIMED some of its lost audience. People are overwhelmed by choice, so they have returned to radio as a trusted 'concierge'. Radio HAS to seize this opportunity and rebuild an active community with its audience. They are not listeners, they are friends. Radio has to move from regarding the audience as passive, and speak to the most active members of their respective format psychographic. Build an interactive engagement with the opinion leaders. Radio also must look into becoming direct retailers of music. Why do they create 70% of the demand for music and then allow other mediums and businesses to profit from that. That may be the most significant paradigm shift of the next five years. I know it is what I will be working on here at Universal Music Group.
Coach Andre: thank you again for being our first guest at controversialcoach.com. You've had a long and illustrious career; may it continue indefinitely. Live long and prosper.
Sky: Andre, I enjoyed it. As I said, your passion for radio is refreshing. Here are some stations that share a passion for their audience"
94.9 KBZT San Diego Alternative
97.5 KZZQ Salt Lake City Active Rock
93.1 WXRT Chicago Triple A
106.1 WCNR Charlottesville, VA Triple A
105.5 WMMM Birmingham. AL Triple A
Sirius Spectrum Triple A
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